Starting from scratch - which cameras?

[peterthevicar]

Hi, we're trying to protect our church from vandalism and I came across your wonderful program. We are starting from scratch and would probably need about three cameras. It's not a big church but I guess the furthest camera would be 50 metres or so from the PC. I have a couple of questions before we start:
1) What is the maximum cable length for a USB camera?
2) Is it better (price vs quality) to get a net camera or a Hauppage TV card and a video-out camera for the remote camera?
3) How fast a PC do we need?
4) How much storage do you think we'd need?

TIA, Peter Salisbury

[zoneminder]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for taking a look at ZoneMinder, some (partial) answers below.

1) I think it's 5 metres, 15 feet in other words. I think you can get repeaters for longer runs but it will probably start getting messy. I tend to use USB cameras only for close to the PCs, so I can see who nicked them if they ever get that far.
2) A net camera is more expensive though some of the newer ones have come down a lot. Basically in the UK (I don't know where you are) they tend to be in the £200-300 range each, and then you would need to cable up cat5 and power, normally mains to their own transformers. The frame rate on net cameras is often a bit slower though they are more versatile. A regular 4 port video card would set you back about £200 I think and the cameras range from about £60 for a small B&W day/night camera to about £150 to a bigger more illuminated one which you would probably need for a 50 metre range. However these are coming down all the time as well. Power and video can run along a combination cable so the transformers etc can be next to your PC. If you are UK based and need more concrete pricing just let me know.
3) The faster the better really but ZM can be run on most PCs including quite old ones. Basically if you are doing full-time motion detection on lots of cameras all capturing large full colour images at high frame rates you will need more power. Sorry it's a 'how long is a bit of string' answer but for say three cameras at a 10FPs frame rate I would think a P3 at around 1GHz would be more than sufficient. The more RAM the better however.
4) That depends on how long you want to keep the images etc for. I would think a 40Gb disk would be fine for most purposes but to be safe maybe 80Gb. I tend to clear things out (with an automatic filter) after about a week and I get nowhere near that, however I don't have motion detection on when my alarm is off.

I hope that helps but if you want any more information or even a quote for any bits just let me know.

Cheers,

Phil,

[peterthevicar]

Thank you for replying so quickly Philip. I should have said we're in the UK (near Southampton). From what you say the 4-port video card with combined-cable cameras sounds like the best solution. If you have recommendations for what works well with ZM that would be great. We have a budget meeting in a week so it would allow me to come up with some approximate numbers in time for that.

Is there some minimum spec for cameras I should look out for if we are using the video to 'help the police with their enquiries'?

Thank you again for the swift reply, Peter.

[peterthevicar]

There is a four-input video card at:
http://www.transaction-one.com/gs/html/ ... event=true

Would that be compatible do you know? It comes with software (inferior to ZM I'm sure!) and is only £170 so it seems good value. Come to think of it with Hauppage TV cards being so cheap now (around £30) is it better just to get three/four of those or does that get difficult to configure?

Sorry about all the questions.

Peter

[zoneminder]

I've not heard of that card before but it may well work. The main thing to check is that it is based on the BTTV chipset, specifically BT878 more recently. Then you usually have two variants. In the first all the inputs are multiplexed together so if you had one camera you might get 25FPS, two maybe 10FPS each and then down to about 4FPS if you used all cameras. This variant is normally cheaper not surprisingly. The other variant just has four (or more) independent assemblages which allow you to keep the full bandwidth for each camera. Which you choose depends on your particular requirements. It might be worth checking with the dealer to see if he knows a little more about the cards.

You can of course use multiple cards though then you have to complexity of actually fitting them in (assuming you have enough PCI slots) but otherwise that shouldn't be a problem.

Another alternative that I know works (because I have some) is the <a href="
http://www.ituner.com/spectra.htm" target="_blank">Ituner Spectra8</a> which is a full rate four input card, which can be expanded to a half rate 8 input card with a small expansion board. Currently it's listed at $395 which equates to about £220 but then you will have to add VAT on as well (unless you are registered). If you are interested in these I managed to get a discount off them last time so it may be worth asking, or I can try on your behalf.

As for cameras, the day/night type listed on the site you linked to would be ok for shorter ranges, though make sure you find out the lens length and field of view as some can be quite narrow. For longer distances you will probably need either something meatier like those shown <a href="http://www.y3kstore.com/content.php?categoryId=306" target="_blank">here</a> or an additional IR illuminator. If you are mostly worried about monitoring at night then I wouldn't worry about colour if there is a substantial premium to pay as all the cameras go B&W at night anyway.

Cheers,

Phil,

[zoneminder]

Whoops. I also meant to say, that in regard to the police, it's a bit of a grey area I think. I've talked to people before who have shown the police images they have captured and even if they may not be admissable as direct evidence it sometime is enough for the police to recognise the perps and make a visit in time to catch them with stolen goods.

To be quite honest I don't know what the legal status of any images captured would be, but anything is better than just a broken window and I suspect the plice are more likely to pursue an enquiry where they have a lead no matter how informal that might be.

Phil,

[peterthevicar]

Thanks for the information Phil; things are coming together!

Here's where I think I am:
1) Interface cards - 3x Hauppage WinTV GO! PCI - total about £100
I had a look at the Spectra 8. It seems a lot more money per input than a WinTV card
We won't need more than 3 cameras so the 5 PCI slots on a normal mainboard would be plenty.
I'm assuming that a WinTV card is just as capable as a single input of the Spectra 8?

2) Cameras: 3 Swann Outdoor Day/Night Camera (Colour) - total about £250
http://www.swann.com.au/products/securi ... ynight.htm
I can't get any serious info on these cameras. Swann seem to be about the only make DABS do.
I assume any such camera is going to have the right outputs for the WinTV card?
I can't follow your link to www.y3kstore.com at the moment to check for rivals.
The colour model is only £10 more than b&w
Lots of power&video cable - can you recommend a place where I can get this?

3) Computer:
1.5GHz Athlon, 512Mb RAM, 80Gb Disk
M/board with 5 PCI slots, Case & quiet power supply
AGP video card, LCD monitor, External modem
Total about £600 (£500 with a CRT monitor)

If that seems like a viable system and the costs are about right, it would come in at about
£950 + cabling.

Would you say I'm in the right sort of ball park?

Thanks for all your help, Peter

[zoneminder]

Hi Peter,

I think the WinTV cards are equivalent though I don't know what frame rate they support. Unless you are getting a discount maybe you should buy one first and try that.

For the cameras link try http://www.y3kcctv.co.uk instead (which does appear to be down) and also http://www.henrys.co.uk as I think you'll find more choice there (see http://www.henrys.co.uk/cctv/ircameras.htm) and they may well be cheaper than Y3K. The bigger ones I was talking about before are listed on that page, and are £119.95 for B&W versus another £40 for colour which might make a difference.

You should be able to get cables etc where you get the cameras. I know Y3K do them and I'm sure Henrys will too. Basically you can either get regular 75ohm coaxial cable for the video and run the power alongside in a separate cable (they are 12V) or get what is called 'plug and play' which is a combination cable that runs off an interface box and does both. The advantage is it's tidier, the disadvantage is that I don't think you can get it in drums as you can with normal cabling but rather 20m extensions which connect via BNC connectors and so have to be sealed from the elements and which might fall in inconvenient locations. I would discuss with your camera supplier what they might be able to do dealwise when thrown in with the cameras. If you get plug and play, then make sure you test all the cables prior to installation!

Your computer seems fine, the only thing missing might be some external connection like a modem (if not built in) if you want events mailed out or the ability to connect in and monitor and control remotely. It doesn't need much in terms of video card or monitor as it's not exactly graphics intensive. In fact most of the ones I set up don't have a monitor at all if they are networked. The only other thing to be wary of with Linux systems in general is don't buy the 'latest and greatest' anything as you might have trouble with drivers. It's always best to get components that have been around for a while or come from a line with a pedigree. I've not really had much problem with that lately as I used to though.

Cheers,

Phil,

[russm]

If you need more than 3/4 input channels try the Osprey 100.
I got mine from http://www.icode.co.uk/icatcher/impleme ... osprey.htm

Expensive but is supported by Linux and multiple cards will NOT clash, unlike some of the others available on the market.

Still in the build and test phase but so far have had no problems, other than of my own making :-)

On a legal point unless the camera is mounted on domestic property then the Data Protection Act mandates warning signs (there is an exemption for domestic property). So you can mount a camera on your house to watchthe church without signs being required but if the cameras are mounted in the church or churchyard then you most probably will.

[peterthevicar]

Russ - thanks for the info about signs. I think it would be a good deterrent anyway so I'd be happy with that. Would we need to register with the Data Protection people do you know?

I looked at the Osprey 100 as you suggested but it looks as though it only handles one input stream and it just said use multiple cards for more inputs. The data on that site was pretty sketchy though, no frame rates were given.

It's good to see the 'Supports Linux' badge!

Peter

[fernando]

can anyone tellme how much is £100.00 in us dollars?

[zoneminder]

It's about $180 I think at the moment.

Phil,

[russm]

Peter

Each card supports 4 inputs 3 are BNC the 4th a SCART, though I must admit I went for the 'know to not clash when using multiple cards' feature.
I'm still tweaking but the frame rate does not seem very fast, normally reported at 8-10 fps. However part of that could be my using maximum resolution and I note from other threads that this is not recommended.

On the Data Protection registration I'm not sure as I was just confirming that from domestic premises I did not require to do so.
You probably best of looking at the CCTV Data Protection Code of Practice (http://www.informationcommissioner.gov. ... actice.pdf)

[peterthevicar]

Hi Philip. Well the budget was approved, the parts arrived and the youth group have built the machine. It's now up and purring and waiting for it Purpose In Life - running ZoneMinder! I'm sure I'll be plaguing you with questions (already one on ./configure) but at least we're on the way now.

Many thanks,
Peter

[matt_sf]

I'm a new ZM user and have started with a Hauppage (re-badged as Osprey) board and am using a cheap camera from All Electronics. They have a fair number of low-priced cameras, thing is I believe they're all NTSC. But the capture cards can usually handle NTSC or PAL...

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/c ... type=store