IP cameras and Cable Length

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:33 am

It was always gonna happen lol

I have a project that needs a few cams over 300m from my zm machine. Can i convert to dsl etc and get more range but less speed over cat 5?

Thoughts

James

MJN · Post by **MJN** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:43 pm

You can indeed. You likely won't 'suffer' the speed loss though but it depends on the number of cameras and what frame rate you're using.

Alternatively you might wish to consider copper/fibre media converters.

Mathew

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:08 pm

MJN wrote:You can indeed. You likely won't 'suffer' the speed loss though but it depends on the number of cameras and what frame rate you're using.

Alternatively you might wish to consider copper/fibre media converters.

Mathew

ah media converters i have heard of these.
Any links you know of?

Id prefer to stay with copper and i reakon that these will be better than dsl? How far can you go on each type ie copper media converters over dsl. I understand that fibre will go a lot further.

James

MJN · Post by **MJN** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:26 pm

The distance depends entirely on the product(s) used and the bandwidth/distance tradeoff. See http://www.amplicon.co.uk/building/exte ... hernet.cfm for a typical example.

For media converters, I use Allied Telesis units - see http://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/Medi ... tails.html for an example (I'm not endorsing the retailer, it was just the first Google hit). The range for these units is approx 2km (although others can be obtained to extend 50 miles or more!).

Mathew

Lee Sharp · Post by **Lee Sharp** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:33 pm

The 2 options for long hall point to point that are reasonably priced are fiber, and wireless. Fiber goes up as distance grows, but we are talking about mile being the first break. A good point to point wireless with directional antennas can easily go 1500 yards (close to a mile) at speeds faster than most internet connections. You just need to lock the APs to each other only to prevent any other traffic. And obviously, you need a clear path for wireless.

m1ke · Post by **m1ke** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:08 pm

You might want to try running (out side grade) CAT5 first. I know what your thinking that CAT5 is only rated to 100M. But as far as I know that was mainly because of Ethernet CSMA/CD (Carrier Sense Multiple Access Collision Detection) because CMSA/CD signaling would not work correctly over distances of more than 100m due to signal timing issues.
This is of course not a problem with Ethernet networks based on switches (as against old hubs) as they are full duplex (use one pair for send & one for receive) & don't use CMSA/CD at all.
I've heard of people running CAT5 at 300m no probs before with a switch at both ends (or one end).

Give it a test; a 300m roll of inside grade CAT5 is only about £20-£30 & out side grade is like £90 or so. If it doesn't work WiFi might be the most cost effective option. A tip from experience though: try to go for 5GHz 802.11a wireless kit as there is much less interference on this band & you are allowed to run higher gain antennas/more power.

Mike.

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:59 pm

Thanks for that. Im going to run duct grade cat5 all the way, but im gonna plan on the media converters.

Just cos i dont fully get it, the link provided which 2 bits do i need for each end of my cat 5?
Im assuming i can run (if needed) 1 set of converters per pair, if bandwidth is a problem?

m1ke · Post by **m1ke** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:10 am

If you are running CAT5 all the way then what you might need are Ethernet extenders not media converters. An Ethernet extender basically uses existing twisted pair wiring (such as CAT5) & converts the 802.3u Fast Ethernet signaling to a different signaling type that is better suited for lower quality links (ie it can auto negotiate link speed etc) such as DSL type signaling.
A media converter converts different physical media types eg: CAT5 to Fiber etc. As your running CAT5 the whole way this isn't what you'd want.

There are different Ethernet extender signaling systems some use 2 wire pairs & some only 1 pair (Ethernet uses 2 pairs).

If the Ethernet won't do the full 300m you could also put a switch or 2 further down the cable run to act as a repeater you'd have to run some power down then but you'd have to have access points along the way in any case to draw the cable through so these would make good places to put a little switch/repeater.

If you are going to use Ethernet Extenders then it might be worth looking into the fiber solution.
A fiber solution would be by far the best especially if you are going to have to put in new cabling anyway. You also won't have any issues with differing ground potential with fiber as you might with coper cabling. I'm not sure the costs involved but I'd guess that there wouldn't be that much of a saving going with CAT5 over fiber once you start using Ethernet Extenders - as I'd expect these are going to be quite costly. Fiber might end up being cheaper actually as media converters aren't that expensive from memory.

Be interested as to what solution you end up with.

Mike.

m1ke · Post by **m1ke** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:55 am

Here are a couple of links that might help:

http://wiki.wireshark.org/EthernetHardware

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/195 ... s-ethernet

Upshot seems to be if you want a fast (cost effective) solution that will work over a continuous cable within specifications then fiber 100BASE-FX (2000m limit full duplex) is the way to go.

Mike.

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:08 pm

Im leaning towards the fibre from what you say and 'media converters'

But im a copper man so would prefer to drag in copper all the way and 'see' if it fails then go for the dsl route.

Post by **cordel** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:38 am

I deal with fiber at work and I love it, Mostly because of the concern of ground potential. If you have a power and ups source at both ends, I would consider this route.

If you can go with a plain CCTV cam, then you might want to have a look at the power over coax solutions. We use allot of those at work to keep eyes on fenced perimeters, The maker though is Pelco, same as our dvr's and all their stuff is pretty pricey. I know their are a few other manufactures though but have yet to try any others.

Quentin · Post by **Quentin** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:41 am

Video Baluns should be more reliable than Media converters as they are passive - just a matching transformer with appropriate BNC / RJ45 and Power connectors.

The URL:
http://www.eql.com.au/cctvbalun.htm

gives a graph of volt drop over distance of Cat 5 for several different camera power consumptions. They will take video over 300m.

The Cat 5 cable & Video Balun extends the cable run for a camera versus Co-ax.

By installing Cat 5 cable, it gives you the option to swap to IP cameras in future.

If you want Ethernet Extenders look at.
http://www.alliedtelesis.com/media/data ... 601_ds.pdf
You need to buy a provider and a subscriber unit, they convert Ethernet to VDSL and back, so you would need to use an IP camera not an analogue camera.
A retailer in the UK is www.universalnetworks.com

Quentin · Post by **Quentin** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:44 am

P.S. You dont need to worry about difference in ground potential if you use Video Baluns as they act as a matching transformer.

Whist fibre can go a lot further than copper, Terminating copper cable is less fiddy and less expensive.

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:46 pm

working in conventionial cctv virtually every day i know pelco well lol

my problem is i have never tried to take ip over its recommended section length.

If i were to use normal cams this wouldnr be a problem but i want to use progressive scan ip cams.

ANyhow thanks again for the input.

James

Quentin · Post by **Quentin** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:21 pm

Don't worry about extending Ethernet over its section length, If you use the Allied Telesyn AT-MC601 / AT-MC602 it is just VDSL, about half the homes in the UK run DSL over a mile. It wont impair IP performance.