Any suggestions with VIA mini-ITX?

linuxoid · Post by **linuxoid** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:07 am

Hi,

I'm totally new to ZoneMinder but I've been using Linux for a long time. Now I thought I'd make a video surveillance computer. After some research, I thought I'd stop at VIA EPIA EX-series Mini-ITX Mainboard: http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/mainb ... ard_id=450

They say it "includes hardware decoding acceleration of MPEG-2/-4 video". And with a ProVideo PV-149 4-channel video capture card, 1 GB of RAM and mini-ITX case it was looking good. Until I read another post http://www.zoneminder.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10583. Now I have doubts.

Do you have any experience with that sort of VIA boards? Would the on-board hardware mpeg4 help with keeping the CPU load low? Or it's designed for something else? Will the motherboard encode/decode images from the capture card in hardware?

Will my set up work at all? Do I need a full desktop computer with AMD/Intel chimneys?

What would you recommend? I want to make this computer as small as possible. I really appreciate your help. Thank you.

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:51 am

There is currently no way to use hardware acceleration in zm. You board will work i have test with a 1gig c3 and it does work. Albeit slowly.
I have no expereice with the 149 so cant comment but if you keep the framerate low then it should be fine

ktheking · Post by **ktheking** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:36 pm

For capturing AXIS cams ,it can do the job. Put hold down on the eventtriggering.

I got a friend who managed to do this with a 386 pc !!!

For capturing with DVR boards ,that you can forget. The conversion takes too much CPU time,which the EPIA mobo can't provide.

If the cheapness of epia counts :
Just go for one of those office compaq/hp/dell small secondhand desktops.
example : http://www.expresspcparts.com.au/StoreF ... =192806896

If powerusage is your concern :
Then just go for the laptop motherboards equipped with regular pci slot.
example : http://www.commell-sys.com/Product/SBC/LV-671.HTM

In both cases ,you'll need to tweak for performance. (play with resolution ,fps capture rate,color or b/w,events,OS version install,etc ...)

Kind regards,

K

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:00 am

id beg to differ, cards are easier than jpeg ip cams, as the system has to convert to native from jpeg, where cards are already in native format thus saving a conversion step. Asi said i have tested on a nehimiah (however its spelt) C3 and with3 cams at 2 fps each it 'managed' but this was before the mmx libs. Id avoid motion detection though

linuxoid · Post by **linuxoid** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:48 am

Thank you for your comments.

Isn't hardware encoding independent of software? That is if the HW card comes with Linux drivers (I found a few in Taiwan), wouldn't Zoneminder work with it?

I want to build a surveillance computer on a mini-ITX platform... if it's possible of course. And Via Epia boards are the most supported by Linux (that is Linux is very much supported by Via). And the best thing about them is they are fanless, so less chance of mechanical failures. And considering the system will be running 24/7, it has too be reasonably low power.

What do you think about MSI Axis 700 Lite? I wanted to try it as a prototype, mainly because it already has a case with a Via mobo. All I need is to get an HDD, ODD, a memory stick and a video capture card with a camera. I was thinking about a Topica TP-101BK dome B&W. I know color will be too much for that CPU.

What puzzles me though is that I found quite a few DVR manufacturers in China which sell DVRs with MPEG4 compression, 4-channels, 120fps, 4/4 GPIO, 2/2 audio, Ethernet, RS485 + Linux - all of that for US$185 incl. a box and also a remote IR control. WHAT??? If I put a similar system together myself, I'll make it for around $500 if I'm lucky. What they are offering sounds too good to be true. But, hey, it's China, they can make nice surprises.

What about an internet access to the Zoneminder? Do I need to set up an Apache server myself and get a static IP address for this from my ISP? Or there is another way?

How does the SMS work? Do I need a mobile/GPRS modem to connect to Zoneminder PC to be able to send alarms to my mobile?

Can you recommend the best Linux distro for a dedicated ZM PC? I was thinking about Xubuntu.

Thank you.

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:53 am

Theres a few question there lol

Isn't hardware encoding independent of software? That is if the HW card comes with Linux drivers (I found a few in Taiwan), wouldn't Zoneminder work with it?

No zm would need to tell the hardware encoder what to process. Linux projects do exist that use this ie myth but zm doesnt as the need is rare, too rare IMHO for phil to spend to much time on this huge job.

What do you think about MSI Axis 700 Lite? I wanted to try it as a prototype, mainly because it already has a case with a Via mobo. All I need is to get an HDD, ODD, a memory stick and a video capture card with a camera. I was thinking about a Topica TP-101BK dome B&W. I know color will be too much for that CPU.

This is the VIA C3 i tested on, and colour will be fine, its framerate you gotta watch. As a side note i use a duron 750 MHz with 3 cams at 2fps with no problems.

What puzzles me though is that I found quite a few DVR manufacturers in China which sell DVRs with MPEG4 compression, 4-channels, 120fps, 4/4 GPIO, 2/2 audio, Ethernet, RS485 + Linux - all of that for US$185 incl. a box and also a remote IR control. WHAT??? If I put a similar system together myself, I'll make it for around $500 if I'm lucky. What they are offering sounds too good to be true. But, hey, it's China, they can make nice surprises.

This is something that i come accross a lot, ie why spend £2k on a proper dvr ie DM, pelco etc when i can buy one for £150. As with everything i can buy a car for £150 and a tft tv and a computer case for £12 and a psu for £8 etc etc

You get what you pay for as with everything, i have yet to find a decent reliable cheap dvr. One percieved problem in my trade is that we fit these things, i can assure you that we dont.....

What about an internet access to the Zoneminder? Do I need to set up an Apache server myself and get a static IP address for this from my ISP? Or there is another way?

You need to have a working apache for zm to work anyway. Static IP's are best but there are ways of using dynamic ip's plenty of info on the forum.

How does the SMS work? Do I need a mobile/GPRS modem to connect to Zoneminder PC to be able to send alarms to my mobile?

There are 2 ways. There was a contrib i think on how to modify to use a gsm module connected to the serial port but id use the email alarms and an smtp to sms gateway, ie you email it to them and they forward it to your mobile. But to be honest there are plenty of push email services now for your mobile id go that way. YOu need a decent device to be able to view the images.

Can you recommend the best Linux distro for a dedicated ZM PC? I was thinking about Xubuntu.

If your new please start with the mandriva live cd. Once you have learned zm then by all means have a play with other distro's. This forum is littered with questions about 'how to get apache going' how to get make to work, ffmpeg etc with the live cd this is all already done for you by the wonderful ross.

curtishall · Post by **curtishall** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:53 pm

I second Wilson's opinion. People think they can run around finding various companies in China or Taiwan who sell cheap cameras and cheap DVRs...import them and make a killing. 95% of the cheap crap floating around is god awful and _if_ it works it won't ever work correctly. The cheap DVRs are a pain in the ass to configure and maintain. In three years I've only found one company that makes a standalone DVR that has a GUI that makes sense and is easy to use.

Same with capture cards. The MPEG4 cards you speak about will not be supported in Zoneminder. Zoneminder uses V4L to access the video channels. The MPEG4 cards (if) you actually get the driver and (if) the driver complies it will be a proprietary module and Zoneminder would never be able to talk to it without alot of code hacking on the Zoneminder source.

And I maybe way off base on this one. But I don't believe a MPEG4 card would really save CPU time. Perhaps if Zoneminder was configured to record a movie directly from the card it would be faster then a software compression card. However Zoneminder is currently grabbing a frame every second and the MPEG4 compression would really only help slightly if at all.

jameswilson wrote:Theres a few question there lol

Isn't hardware encoding independent of software? That is if the HW card comes with Linux drivers (I found a few in Taiwan), wouldn't Zoneminder work with it?
No zm would need to tell the hardware encoder what to process. Linux projects do exist that use this ie myth but zm doesnt as the need is rare, too rare IMHO for phil to spend to much time on this huge job.

What do you think about MSI Axis 700 Lite? I wanted to try it as a prototype, mainly because it already has a case with a Via mobo. All I need is to get an HDD, ODD, a memory stick and a video capture card with a camera. I was thinking about a Topica TP-101BK dome B&W. I know color will be too much for that CPU.
This is the VIA C3 i tested on, and colour will be fine, its framerate you gotta watch. As a side note i use a duron 750 MHz with 3 cams at 2fps with no problems.

What puzzles me though is that I found quite a few DVR manufacturers in China which sell DVRs with MPEG4 compression, 4-channels, 120fps, 4/4 GPIO, 2/2 audio, Ethernet, RS485 + Linux - all of that for US$185 incl. a box and also a remote IR control. WHAT??? If I put a similar system together myself, I'll make it for around $500 if I'm lucky. What they are offering sounds too good to be true. But, hey, it's China, they can make nice surprises.
This is something that i come accross a lot, ie why spend £2k on a proper dvr ie DM, pelco etc when i can buy one for £150. As with everything i can buy a car for £150 and a tft tv and a computer case for £12 and a psu for £8 etc etc

You get what you pay for as with everything, i have yet to find a decent reliable cheap dvr. One percieved problem in my trade is that we fit these things, i can assure you that we dont.....

What about an internet access to the Zoneminder? Do I need to set up an Apache server myself and get a static IP address for this from my ISP? Or there is another way?
You need to have a working apache for zm to work anyway. Static IP's are best but there are ways of using dynamic ip's plenty of info on the forum.

How does the SMS work? Do I need a mobile/GPRS modem to connect to Zoneminder PC to be able to send alarms to my mobile?
There are 2 ways. There was a contrib i think on how to modify to use a gsm module connected to the serial port but id use the email alarms and an smtp to sms gateway, ie you email it to them and they forward it to your mobile. But to be honest there are plenty of push email services now for your mobile id go that way. YOu need a decent device to be able to view the images.

Can you recommend the best Linux distro for a dedicated ZM PC? I was thinking about Xubuntu.
If your new please start with the mandriva live cd. Once you have learned zm then by all means have a play with other distro's. This forum is littered with questions about 'how to get apache going' how to get make to work, ffmpeg etc with the live cd this is all already done for you by the wonderful ross.

Lee Sharp · Post by **Lee Sharp** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:56 pm

curtishall wrote:I second Wilson's opinion. People think they can run around finding various companies in China or Taiwan who sell cheap cameras and cheap DVRs...import them and make a killing. 95% of the cheap crap floating around is god awful and _if_ it works it won't ever work correctly. The cheap DVRs are a pain in the ass to configure and maintain. In three years I've only found one company that makes a standalone DVR that has a GUI that makes sense and is easy to use.

I actually have this argument on a regular basis with my partner. We just tried 2 new stand-alones. One allows you to change the password, but admin, admin still will log you in no matter what you do. Another used a proprietary client, and even a proprietary Windows app to extract the manual on frickin pdf! We had two people working for several hours on these pieces of junk and they still don't work right.

We have sampled a Lot of Chinese product. Almost all of it is junk. A few items are OK, but just have a cheap last step. Some things can be made to work very well if you spec them properly from the factory. The 240 fps 8 port cards we use are a great example. As sold on ebay, they will perform poorly off the block, and fail within a few months. Curtis evaluated them and passed on them as junk too.

We went a step further to see why they were failing. Found out why... The factory replaced the cheap component with what we wanted for $2 per card. Of that sample batch, not one has failed. (However, a few power supplies failed due to heat... I think they pass)

So what was the point of all this? Chinese product can work, but you have to have the time, skill and volume to make up for all the failed product you get. I am talking about 50 different capture cards and all 10 stand-alone DVRs so far... For an individual who is doing this once or twice, don't risk a total project failure to save a few bucks. If you have to buy 3 Chinese cards before you find one that works for a year, the prices on the Blue Cherry website start to look very cheap. And wait until you try an warranty one of the Chinese knock-offs...

linuxoid · Post by **linuxoid** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:41 pm

Thank you very much for your comments, I really appreciate your help.

I just had to ask your opinion on the Chinese DVRs as I don't have any experience in this area yet. It was just such a huge difference either a $1-2k one in Australia or $185 from China. I suspected they'd be dodgy but ... it was very tempting to waste $185 to try it.

Anyway, I'm not going to buy theirs, that's for sure. I want to build my own. This is the only way to find out what exactly I need, eg. CPU, ram, hdd etc.

I always run Apache and NFS servers on my local network, so I know how to set them up. ZM is already running as well (but I don't have a camera yet) on the server with Xubuntu, openSUSE and Bluecherry Live CD both for real and in a Virtual Box. But I haven't tried to "open" my servers to the world. Too much hassle about security. I leave it to my web hosting company which runs my website on Apache servers with Linux.

What do you think about this Watchdog distro: http://www.doubleburgerbar.com/watchdog/ ?

Could you please drop a link on how to configure ZM so that I can access it from outside, that is from Internet? I don't have a static IP address. I want to use a dynamic IP. Is it done through a remote desktop? Or through Apache itself?

What do you think about ProVideo video capture cards? Are these reliable? Are these the ones Bluecherry sells? I'm looking at ProVideo PV-149P, Bluecherry has a similar one PV-149. Plus I need an I/O card (ProVideo PV-154). Anyone has this set up? Does the GPIO work in Linux? Does it need any special drivers?

What are Bluecherry like? Are they reliable? I mean in terms of warranty and all? I asked them a few questions, they were really helpful and fast in their reply.

What about Modbus RS-485 or extra digital I/Os? What do you do about that? Is there any easy way to have these and control them from ZM?

Sorry for so many questions, but I think you're the only ones who might have already done all that and may help. Thanks again.

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:43 pm

So what was the point of all this? Chinese product can work, but you have to have the time, skill and volume to make up for all the failed product you get. I am talking about 50 different capture cards and all 10 stand-alone DVRs so far... For an individual who is doing this once or twice, don't risk a total project failure to save a few bucks. If you have to buy 3 Chinese cards before you find one that works for a year, the prices on the Blue Cherry website start to look very cheap. And wait until you try an warranty one of the Chinese knock-offs...

qfa

Post by **cordel** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:34 am

linuxoid wrote: Could you please drop a link on how to configure ZM so that I can access it from outside, that is from Internet? I don't have a static IP address. I want to use a dynamic IP. Is it done through a remote desktop? Or through Apache itself?

Any configuration that might need to be done would be in apache as a nomal web server. ZM does nbot bind any IP it self.

linuxoid wrote: What do you think about ProVideo video capture cards? Are these reliable? Are these the ones Bluecherry sells? I'm looking at ProVideo PV-149P, Bluecherry has a similar one PV-149. Plus I need an I/O card (ProVideo PV-154). Anyone has this set up? Does the GPIO work in Linux? Does it need any special drivers?

GPIO is not working in the Linux Kernel yet, but we are just as hopeful.

linuxoid wrote:What are Bluecherry like? Are they reliable? I mean in terms of warranty and all? I asked them a few questions, they were really helpful and fast in their reply.

Curtis at Blue Cherry Rocks, as is an active member of our forum. And no he has never given me anything to say that. I delt with him recently trying to solve a members issue and he is very knowledgable.

linuxoid wrote:What about Modbus RS-485 or extra digital I/Os? What do you do about that? Is there any easy way to have these and control them from ZM?

You can write the interface in Perl as Zoneminder has its own perl modules to use for this purpose. There is some sample code to go off of or you might want to contract some one here to make the code for you.

Lee Sharp · Post by **Lee Sharp** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:29 am

linuxoid wrote:I just had to ask your opinion on the Chinese DVRs as I don't have any experience in this area yet. It was just such a huge difference either a $1-2k one in Australia or $185 from China. I suspected they'd be dodgy but ... it was very tempting to waste $185 to try it.

I think waste is the correct term...

linuxoid wrote:I always run Apache and NFS servers on my local network, so I know how to set them up. ZM is already running as well (but I don't have a camera yet) on the server with Xubuntu, openSUSE and Bluecherry Live CD both for real and in a Virtual Box. But I haven't tried to "open" my servers to the world. Too much hassle about security. I leave it to my web hosting company which runs my website on Apache servers with Linux.

Look strongly at fail2ban or the equivalent. Especially is you want ssh open.
Keep your patches current. In Ubuntu, you can set update-manager to do this automatically.

linuxoid wrote:What do you think about this Watchdog distro: http://www.doubleburgerbar.com/watchdog/ ?

Never used Puppy, so I have no input...

linuxoid wrote:Could you please drop a link on how to configure ZM so that I can access it from outside, that is from Internet? I don't have a static IP address. I want to use a dynamic IP. Is it done through a remote desktop? Or through Apache itself?

I use m0n0wall for my firewall and it supports dyndns for IP management. Then I forward port 80 always, and port 23 as needed for management. There is a dyndns client for Ubuntu, and other Linux versions as well.

linuxoid wrote:What do you think about ProVideo video capture cards? Are these reliable? Are these the ones Bluecherry sells? I'm looking at ProVideo PV-149P, Bluecherry has a similar one PV-149. Plus I need an I/O card (ProVideo PV-154). Anyone has this set up? Does the GPIO work in Linux? Does it need any special drivers?

Solid cards from Taiwan. Occasionally they run hot, so an investment is heat sinks is not a bad idea. I do not believe there is any support for the GPIO or the PV-154 at this time.

linuxoid wrote:What are Bluecherry like? Are they reliable? I mean in terms of warranty and all? I asked them a few questions, they were really helpful and fast in their reply.

He is a good guy. I have bought a few PV-155-16's from him. Yes I can get them cheaper direct from Taiwan, but he has good service and has them in stock. He even ships fast when you need it in a hurry. He is also frequently on the forum.

linuxoid wrote:What about Modbus RS-485 or extra digital I/Os? What do you do about that? Is there any easy way to have these and control them from ZM?

It might be faster if you told us what you are trying to do here. There may already be tested solutions.

linuxoid · Post by **linuxoid** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:18 pm

Thank you very much again for your replies.

It might be faster if you told us what you are trying to do here. There may already be tested solutions.

I want to build a fanless video surveillance and security computer. For that I narrowed down my options to the following:

Case Zooty GA610i (http://www.g-alantic.com.tw)
Mainboard VIA EPIA EX10000EG
Memory Elixir 1GB 533MHz DDRII RAM
HDD Seagate 250GB SATA2 5400rpm
ODD Pioneer DVR-112 SATA
Vieo capture PV-143N 4-channel (I only need 2-5 fps in B&W so I think this card should be fine)
Cameras 3x Topica TP-101BK
OS Watchdog or Xubuntu or openSUSE (depending on CPU load, but I love openSUSE, it should work better with Xforce desktop on that mainboard)

The computer will be on a local network. I need to view the cameras from the internet. The computer should take 4 DIs (motion sensors) and control 2 DOs (sound alarm and siren). RS-485 is even better than DIO. It should also send an email on activating of the motion sensor.

Can ZM be configured to save camera frames as JPEG, MJPEG, MPEG?

Is GPIO driver in the kernel at all (http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/gpio.txt)? That is would it help if I recompile the kernel with GPIO support? Can I read/control I/Os with SMBus? Is there any way in ZM to do I/O monitoring and control?

What could you recommend/suggest? Any apache, dyndns, remote desktop, smtp server configuration howto will be greatly appreciated Thank you.

jameswilson · Post by **jameswilson** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:27 am

Input and putput wise i have never tried but good luck, id like to find a supported ip unit

zm will only save jpegs, you can make mpegs from the jpegs if required but transcoding is cpu intensive.

Id look at the live cd as this also has mmx extensions that most linux distros dont have without building, plus if your new it will be easier for us

linuxoid · Post by **linuxoid** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:42 am

jameswilson,

Id look at the live cd as this also has mmx extensions

which one: ZM with Xubuntu or Watchdog?