ZoneMinder Forums

(This is about ZoneMinder, so using the Non-ZoneMinder forum is not ideal. But I can't find a better one. I tried replying to the "Donate" posting in the announcements forum, but I am not allowed to.)

I've used ZoneMinder for a couple of days and so far I am impressed by how well it works. (I posted a comment on freshmeat with more detail.) This stuff is useful to me, and I will be glad to make a contribution. But how much? And it's not just ZM. I have this problem with all kinds of useful free software.

I could look at it this way. I am spending around $700 on the CCTV system. A small but otherwise completely arbitrary percentage of this sum will not make much of a difference to me, but it will help the project. Say it's 5%, so I send $35. But it could be 10%. Or 2%. So then?

Here's a similar problem. This guy is panhandling on a busy downtown street. He can probably use some cash to stay alive. If I give him a dollar it will make no difference to me. But how many people are giving him a dollar? What about other hungry people who don't panhandle? So I don't give him money. I give it to the local food bank instead.

With commercial software, I know that the price is more or less "right" because of two limiting factors. One, if it's too low, the company goes bankrupt. Two, if it's too high,
the company is making less money because it sells a lot fewer copies than it could, and in addition someone will eventually offer a competing product (well at least in theory).

Is there any way to make these or similar principles work with free software? For instance, should the authors/maintainers publish information on number of downloads, number of users in their forums etc., and donations they receive? But then of course wouldn't they publish whatever number grants them the highest income?

Such difficult questions!

donating is normally what you seem to be suitable, you would be suprised how little it is.

I think maybe a monthly donation total just to show how low it is should be on the home page or the forum?

I could do that, except that I would have to remember to keep it up-to-date, which is the biggest obstacle!

The idea with donations is that you give what you think it is worth and you give it to whomever you want. It's nice if you give it to someone here but I don't have a problem if you donate the money to a charity instead.

I seen this and got distracted

While your at it, it would also be a good idea to list expenses that the donations should be covering:
Hosting
Hours volunteered
hardware purchased for support
etc, etc.

If someone wants to know the donation total, then they should also be privy to the costs.

Just my 2 cents

I am all for any idea that doesn't need me to spend lots of time administering it and against any that do

I agree that anything that creates more (unexciting) work has to be justified.

I help our school raise money for new buildings, as a parent volunteer. Perhaps the "money-for-our-school" model can apply to free software. Like in a school, there is a community of users that are happy with the product (or they wouldn't be users). Most, or at least many of them, would like to encourage its continued support and improvement.

There is, of course, the free-rider problem. But there are also people who have more disposable money and want to make things happen and believe that uneven participation can still be fair (sort of like taxes) or that the unfairness doesn't matter that much.

So here's what schools do. They advertise how much money the school needs for whatever project. They explain that the project will happen only if the money is collected. And they show how much money has been collected thus far.

Schools (and other non-profit orgs) do a lot more, of course. They recruit parents (such as myself) to talk to other parents about gifts (not that I particularly like doing it), and do all kinds of creative fund raising. But I believe that publishing the figures gives you the most bang for the buck.

For instance, our school (a private school in Northern California) has approximately 800 students and gets an average gift in the ballpark of $1,000 per student per year. Knowing this is already helpful. The school also prints a list of donors grouped by gift size, which also helps me decide. At first I thought that having one's name in there wasn't that nice and that anonymous donations are more tasteful, but I realize now that publishing the names encourages others to give. This works in a smaller community in which people know each other, but to some extent it might work also for free software.

The school is also in the middle of a construction project and has raised about $14M so far (not all from parents---a substantial amount comes from private foundations).

Of course if you make any money by consulting on your free program, I don't think that you need to report that. If someone pays you to add features, you may want to acknowledge them, but nobody will blame you for wanting to keep your income figures private.

A page with donation information may not be that much work and it may pay itself back quickly. After all, our school has one full-time Director of Development (no, that's not software development) and that's not free. The page would only need to be updated once or twice a year.

Anyhow, I am not necessarily advocating any of this, but I think it deserves some thought. In the meanwhile, I am sending US$40.

Thanks!

I agree and it makes since to a point. BTW thanks for the donation. I get allot of requests for support, but when anyone finds out money is involved, they seem to drop off the grid.
Allot of peoples take on free software, it that they don't need to pay, which is not it's meaning what so ever. It refers to the freedom of code, having open-source so that you have the ability to make changes to code your self, blah blah blah, yeah we all know the argument I'm sure.

The truth is, unless you have a company sponsor, open source programs do not make much money, and in most cases cost the developers more than what is submitted.
This forum sets on a server, the server sits at a colo site, these are not free.
Then there is everyone time invovled in taking care of the forum, and sitting down and writing code, on top of the real world job we must hold, and family we want to tend.

We could always do like Sveasoft and close the forums and require membership to have access to the support forums @ $20 USD a year, but that's not what we want either. We don't want to leach off our users, especially those that are just doing this for a home project.
My support guidelines out side of the forum is a sliding scale, depending on the user and the use. I even do it for free in certain cases, but I certainly can't make a living from it, not even if I lived in a cardboard box. Neither is Phil able to, He is married and has a family to support. While it would be nice to have the project support it self, ATM it doesn't come close.

We do have some marketing plans to try to change this, but they also take time, cost money, etc, etc.

So setting Donation goals, and public listing of donations is certainly feasible.

Id like to see a donations recieved total if only to show how little it is

... and make that total pop up whenever somebody wants to post something in "Feature Requests" section

Sorry, I forgot to introduce myself properly. I even misspelled my last name, which is Semenzato with an O at the end, and I just noticed that my full name isn't anywhere. My first name is Luigi. Pleased to meet you all.

Well this got me thinking... I have my own method for dealing with FOSS projects, but I have actually never asked a project lead if what I did was helpful or not. Sounds like about time...

Open Source is an odd model. Most business is about finding someone else's problem, and offering a fix for money. The goal is to make the fix look good enough to get the money. Open Source is all about fixing your own problem, and offering it up in the hope that it fixes others problems. The goal is to actually fix your problem, and looking good is secondary. So in my compensation plan, I look to myself. What do I need?

Time... My personal money goes up and down, but I never have enough time. In any project I get involved in, I try and take on a support role. This helps me learn the project (you learn a lot more by teaching) and it takes a lot of "beginner support" load off the developers. Trust me... You can never have enough people to post that the password for zm4ms is admin:admin. Install guides, walk throughs, and trubleshooting steps are also gold.

Hardware... Cool toys are cool! If I have a piece of hardware that can help, I offer it. Occasionally shipping issues and customs agent costs make this tougher, so I may offer it remotely. But since no developer can afford all of the possible hardware, giving some (directly or virtually) can help a lot.

Hosting... I got a web site. I have some space... I have a few systems that can seed torrents. This can keep a DSL connection for a dev functional. The .debs everyone uses are at the other end of a home DSL service. Good thing they are small! Last year that service went down... I can't remember how many, but a lot of people got direct e-mails of a ZM deb.

Cash... I put this last as it is generally my last choice. I guess it is the "gift card for Christmas" syndrome. I just think it is a impersonal gift. However, if there is a "server drive" to replace failing hardware, or a hosting drive to cover a change to a big annual bill, I will send some cash. That is the other reason this is last. I refuse to deal with paypal, so to give money actually takes effort on both sides.

Now there is one exception. At one time I was talking about selling ZM kits to people here at cost plus. This was mainly a way to get a known good hardware combination in the hands of people wanting to try it. Added to that cost would be an amount (about 15%) going directly to the project. The price would cover the hardware, my time (at amazingly good rates), and the project donation. If you are making money from a project, you should share. This is slightly different from using a project as one tool of many to make a living.

So, feeback?

Thanks for the comprehensive post. Of these I would say that time and cash are what I am most short of, though hardware is also useful, hosting I think I am good for at the moment. However my time is mostly tied up with 'day job' type work so I am a bit stuck there.

Time spent by people like yourself on the forum is invaluable and very much much appreciated as it takes the pressure of having to answer every post. So that leaves cash and hardware, though I would always emphasise that that doesn't necessarily how to come my way and if just as welcome going to other contributors to the project or forums. Also, I would be equally as pleased to hear about donations to charities, either local or global, as well.